Consider me boggled.

[deathpixie]

Okay, watching the SBS international news, and the Katrina aftermath footage. Particularly the stuff about people dying of dehydration and heatstroke in the streets. Can I just say one thing?

What the fuck is the government doing in terms of disaster relief? Bloody hell, after the tsunamis in December there was relief on its way within 24 hours. It's been three bloody days!

And just why aren't they evacuating people from the place and getting them to places they can get help? Oh, there's buses going out, but when you have thousands of people to move, you need more than 70 Greyhounds, people.

You see this stuff in Third World countries. You certainly don't expect it in the jewel of developed nations.

Disclaimer: I'm not aiming this at the American people as a whole, or even the various aid relief organisations like the Red Cross, although I didn't see much in the way of footage there. It's pretty much aimed at thhe government, whose job it is to deal with this sort of thing. Ye gods, Bush doesn't have the slightest clue, does he?

Comments

[qodarkness.livejournal.com]

Yes - this is also my issue. We're rescuing people they say (which seems to be the only thing they're doing). Well - hello. Why not organise dropping some great big loads of drinking water and food in places where there are many people. If there's enough to go around, civilisation will hold. Medicines would also be good.

Goodness only knows what's happening in Biloxi - it got hit with the actual hurricane (not just the backwash like New Orleans) and it's disappeared from our news entirely.

I have a feeling Bush's popularity polls are going to worsen significantly during this. One can only hope that it cripples the next Republican candidate for President as well.

A

[trishalynn.livejournal.com]

All I know is I DIDN'T FUCKING VOTE FOR HIM!

Not that Kerry might have automatically done a better job. But I'm sure that he wouldn't have only been willing to cut short his vacation by three days instead of taking off of vacation sooner so he could help figure out what the national government was going to do to help.

As an aside, it's very sad to me that while I felt compelled to hop a plane after 9/11 to help shovel debris and take care of refugees, I don't feel as inclined to help this time around.

[deathpixie]

There's some news from Biloxi - not much, but a search on the BBC website got a few nibbles. Place is pretty much entirely flooded, but seems to be in slightly better shape than New Orleans. Some looting, but not the desperation we're seeing in NO.

Disease is going to be a huge factor in this. Without proper sanitation and no clean drinking water, how long do you think it'll be before something like cholera breaks out?

And we can but hope this damages the Republicans - if this doesn't, nothing short of being caught on tape molesting altar boys will...

[nute.livejournal.com]

It's not the government's job. The government's job is to govern. Organizations like FEMA and the CDC are set up to deal with disaster relief. They're PART of the government, but not the whole.

Why aren't they evacuating everyone? They can't. Plain and simple. It is not physically possible to get to some parts of New Orleans just yet, and they're working on that. The military is literally chainsawing their way in from the coast because downed trees and debris make it impossible to get to the urban areas.

My first instinct is: Why aren't the people of New Orleans doing something about it besides sitting around and dying? If you can't walk, crawl. If you can't crawl, swim. If you can't swim, make a raft. If you don't know how to start a fire and boil water so it's safe to drink, if you don't know the importance of staying warm without electric power, if you don't know elementary first aid -- these are the things that keep you alive in this apocalyptic situation.

I agree that the important thing to do is get those people out who can't/won't evacuate themselves. Once as many living people are out of the disaster area as can be moved, THEN go to the secondary and far less important business of re-establishing the city.

[nute.livejournal.com]

All I know is I DIDN'T FUCKING VOTE FOR HIM!


Well, then you did your part to fight the hurricane. Huzzah.

[deathpixie]

*blinks* Clash of cultures again, I think. If this was happening here (and hell, it has happened here, like back in the 1970s when Darwin was pretty much destroyed by Cyclone Tracey), it'd be the government's responsibility to provide aid and assistance. Non-profit organisations like the Red Cross also get involved, but disaster-relief funding in Australia comes from federal and state governments. It's considered part of the whole providing infrastructure thing, same as providing a police force and State Emergency Services.

Considering the water is contaminated by oil, battery acid, sewerage and dead bodies, both human and animal, I think people are going to have to do a hell of a lot more than boil it. Like Amanda said, air drops of food, water and medicine at the very least, if evacuation is so impossible.

[nute.livejournal.com]

Nope. Elementary physics. Boiling water with a condensation still purifies it from damn near everything. Ah, the things you learn being raised in the wilderness around borderline wacko survivalists...

The government HAS passed the disaster relief funding. I really can't see how they're failing in their job here. Get food and medicine to them, true. It's going to where they've evacuated people to. Like it's supposed to. People who are still in the danger zone don't need food and medicine, they need to get their asses OUT of there to where the food and medicine is.

[deathpixie]

Well, that pretty much proves that point - not everyone has the benefit of your experience Nute, and obviously if I was there I'd be joining the queues of apparently clueless people looking for a clean water source instead of boiling the other.

Considering the area is prone to hurricanes and there was ample warning of Katrina's advance, plus the whole 'we didn't know the levees were going to break in a category 4 storm' pissweak excuse, the fact funding has only been passed today (according to the news sites), I'm finding that unacceptably slow. Like I said in the original post, disaster aid was on it's way to the areas hit by the tsunami in December within 24 hours. The government's had four days, and this isn't a third world country like most of those in the tsunami-affected area.

Perhaps I'm being overly critical and not understanding how things work in the States, but it just seems to me a complete ballsup. And as much as comparisons shouldn't be made, I can't help comparing what I'm seeing now to what I saw of relief after the tsunamis, and there's so much difference. Then again, a lot of the people affected by the tsunamis weren't shooting at aid helicopters. *wry*

[nute.livejournal.com]

Well, that pretty much proves that point - not everyone has the benefit of your experience Nute, and obviously if I was there I'd be joining the queues of apparently clueless people looking for a clean water source instead of boiling the other.

Ain't that the sad truth. How I grew up, learning how to do this stuff was normal and expected. Part of me looks at people on their roofs when there's only forty feet of water to the next house, and the next, and so on out of town - and it doesn't occur to them to swim? Part of me just thinks "Feh. City folk." and shakes my head.

But you're right - people DON'T know how to survive anymore. It's not a part of societal education, people are soft and dependent on modern convenience. Tragic, and no one individual person is to blame, but events like this show that such training from an early age is pretty damn helpful, even if it's never needed.

[deathpixie]

Well, if it was me on the roof, I'd be wondering about those Cajun gators... *grins*

Actually, I think it might be part of the difference between this and the tsunamis - disaster of this scale is almost completely unheard-of to the people in NO. Somewhere like Indonesia, which has earthquakes, floods and tropical storms on a regular basis, the people have learned to adapt to this sort of thing. Goes for the response, too - perhaps planning for dealing with natural disasters like this (evacuation, city design, disaster relief afterwards etc) is something that should become normal. Especially considering the number of hurricanes that have hit the area in the last two years.

And now I'm off to bed. Brain all mushy from writing a finding on a parachutist's death at work today.

[dexfarkin.livejournal.com]

There seems to be three major problems in New Orleans which are crippling aid.

The first is that the communication between agencies and elements directing relief is abyssmal. No one has the slightest clue who is supposed to be in charge, so instead of a directed straightfoward response, most of the efforts have been stopgap and piecemeal. In a situation like this, you need a clear set of priorities, and a focused allocation of resources in order to meet those goals. New Orleans can't be fixed in a few days, but the groups should be setting attainable hourly and daily goals. Unfortunately, in the absence of leadership, its become a question of 'what seems most important' at the time to the individual agents, and lacks an overall plan.

The second is the utter lack of preparedness amoungst agencies. They have known this was coming days. In fact, they knew and even assumed it was going to strike at a higher level and directly on the city itself. What should have been happening is an organized effort to respond as soon as the storm was passed, discussions with other governments for aid prior to the event, and the reallocation of facilities and resources so that disaster relief could start instantly. At the very least, specialized disaster relief like DART could have been moving and set up days ago to help with the efforts.

Last of course are the actual physical elements. With the range of damage, difficulty with terrain, and the ongoing evacutation issues, it is going to be more difficult to bring in relief rapidly. That will slow things, and there really isn't a way to counter that.

[trishalynn.livejournal.com]

Silly Nute. No one can fight a hurricane.

[trishalynn.livejournal.com]

It's not the government's job.

Oh hell yes, it is.

From the preamble of the U.S. Constitution, emphasis mine:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This means that the things provisioned for in the Constitution, like the three branches of the federal government, were established and ordained to respond to national emergencies like war between countries and natural disasters that cripple significant parts of the country or the people under the government. If hundreds of bloated bodies in stagnant water and armed rioters and looters aren't impinging on "domestic tranquility," I don't know what is.

New Orleans is an international port. The gulf refineries there provide for the entire nation. At last census count, 1,337,726 people lived in the New Orleans metro area. Who knows how many tourists were there when it happened.

When the meteorologists were sure that it was a Cat 5 hurricane that was going to make landfall here in the U.S., where was our President? He was on vacation, doing whatever it is he does on those numerous vacations he's been on. I doubt that either he or his people or the assistants or interns of his people were starting to look at the established plans for these kinds of emergencies and disasters and updating them, because he's already admitted that the governmental response was ill-conceived.

[trishalynn.livejournal.com]

I know how to make a condensation still, somewhat. At least I know the technique and what that doesn't filter out, some drops of bleach would.

[nute.livejournal.com]

Yet.

[maureenans.livejournal.com]

I'm partial to the people shooting at the cops and other people tryign to render aid.

um yeah? hi? THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU!!

I vote we de-annex N'Awlins like they did to Gotham and be done with it.

[acetal.livejournal.com]

Yes, because that went so well.

[acetal.livejournal.com]

Something just occured to me.

How exactly are people going to boil water considering that all the wood is probably wet? Sodden, in fact. Those people who are smokers probably have lighters, and if they're lucky they'll find some dry paper somewhere.

For that matter, how're they going to make a distillation still? In the old days they might've used a kettle and a length of hose attached to the spout, but most kettles these days are electric and made of plastic. Unless a lot of people were making moonshine, the only place the equipment they need is probably available is the local high school. Assuming it's still intact.

That'll provide enough clean water for a family if they're lucky and industrious.

Remind me again how many people there are in New Orleans?

This is exactly why you see people looting milk. Drinkable liquid in a sealed container? Teh yay. Personally, I have no problem with people looting abandoned stores for food, liquid and clothing under those circumstances. Especially since they'll just go to waste otherwise. I do have a problem with people stealing items which aren't necessary for survival, taking things from people by force or intimidation, or if the owner is standing right there (in which case negotiation is the order of the day).

[maureenans.livejournal.com]

like communism, it looks good on paper. not so much in reality.

doesn't mnean I don't like it.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_bounce_/]

It's not the government's job. The government's job is to govern. Organizations like FEMA and the CDC are set up to deal with disaster relief. They're PART of the government, but not the whole.

I think there is a real clash of cultures here. From where I'm sitting, it *is* the government's job to provide disaster relief and prevention, just as it's the government's job to provide health care, education (primary, secondary and tertiary) and social welfare at adequate levels to ensure that everyone has a reasonable standard of living and has access to services despite not being able to afford them in a private system. It's what you pay your fucking taxes for.


Why aren't the people of New Orleans doing something about it besides sitting around and dying? If you can't walk, crawl. If you can't crawl, swim. If you can't swim, make a raft.

It's not that simple. If you didn't have the recourses to get out of the city before the hurricane, if you had some kind medical condition before everything went to hell, you're going to be in a much worse physical condition now. My guess is that it's simply not physically possible for a lot of people to walk out of the city. Especially considering that most of the place is flooded and the roads, the ones that aren't, are damaged. I've got enough medical issues that, at the best of times, I'd have a lot of trouble walking for a day. Not physically possible. It's not as simple as 'walk out of the city'. And even if you did, where, exactly, are you supposed to go? Are you supposed to keep walking north until you find someplace that wasn't hit by the hurricane?

People are waiting to be evacuated because they have no other option.

Most people don't know that making a distillation still would purify water. Most people would assume that there's so much shit and chemicals and crap in the water that it wouldn't be safe to drink after boiling it. It's no wonder that they're waiting for water drops. They can't do anything else.

[nute.livejournal.com]

When it comes to the word "government" most Americans think "The president!" - because most Americans slept through the classes we had for TWELVE YEARS that teach you how our government works. For a purported democracy of the people, most of them sure don't deserve a say in it.

I have to acknowledge that yes, most of the people in the city are not there voluntarily. My personal offense is that - how can people allow themselves to get into such a situation that you don't have the resources to save your own life?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_bounce_/]

People who are still in the danger zone don't need food and medicine, they need to get their asses OUT of there to where the food and medicine is.

Yeah, but if you want to keep them healthy until you can get them out of there, then they *need* food, CLEAN water and medicine. Say you're an insuline dependant diabetic, say you're on heavy duty anti depressants, or shit, can't even find anticeptic cream, what are you supposed to do when they run out? Getting people out of the city is clearly taking some time. Keeping the people that are still in the city healthy while you get them out seems to be pretty fucking important because you'll have even more problems on your hands after if you don't.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_bounce_/]

It's often not so much 'allowing yourself' which is pretty much saying 'you chose to die' so much as simply not having the access to the recourses that you need to surive. They're two different things.

[nute.livejournal.com]

Which would be easy to do, except that the anarchists with the guns have cut off supplies, or indiscriminate looters took everything they could grab. And the rest of the populace there are allowing themselves to be victims. I mean, the atrocities happening in the shelters themselves, and everyone LET IT HAPPEN. It's chaos, it's people discarding the rules of society because things have gotten difficult. And THAT is what disgusts me most about the whole thing.

[diamonde.livejournal.com]

If you can't crawl, swim.

Personally, I'd say that swimming in swamp/sea water full of petrol, oil, chemicals, raw sewage and dead bodies is a sign of more balls than brains. Particularly if you have any broken skin, like all those people probably do. Gangrene just isn't sexy. Nor is diarrhoea or copious vomiting. They're also not likely to increase your chances of survival when there's no clean drinking water. And since neither boiling or crude distilation are going to remove the petrol, that's still going to be an issue.